The “deconversion” testimonies that have crossed my path may vary, but they are all heartbreaking.
In one video, the young woman who was formerly an ardent Independent Baptist mentioned the problem of the hateful God of Romans 9.
That is, literally hateful. She quoted God as saying, “Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated.”
And yes, as I imagine you are aware, that’s exactly what it says, right there in Romans 9:13. And it appears on first reading that He hated Esau even before he was born.
I went to my Romans notebook. After all, I’ve studied through the entirety of Romans at least 3 different times through the years and certain parts of it much more than that.
Well, stink. The last time I commented on Romans 9, I was still studying the Bible through the lens of Calvinism.1A note about Calvinism: I believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is sovereign, in the sense that “all things have been put under His feet,” according to Ephesians 1:22. He is King over kings and Lord over lords. I do not believe this sovereignty extends to planning and orchestrating every detail of people’s lives, subsuming their free will. From what I saw, I didn’t have any explanation except the familiar one of God choosing certain individuals for salvation and casting out others before they had any ability to choose good or evil. (I knew “hate” didn’t really mean “hate”; it just meant “not chosen for salvation,” but that would for sure feel like hate, wouldn’t it?)
I read it over again and asked the Lord to help me understand it.
But before I did the deep dive back into Romans, I remembered the YouTube channel Soteriology 101 with Dr. Leighton Flowers. Its specific purpose is to show how the Scriptures do not teach Calvinism and to explain what it is they really do teach.
People had been mentioning it to me since 2018 (yes, I checked), but I had only given it a passing look. “It looks good for those who haven’t come out of Calvinism yet,” I thought.
But right now I needed more clarity on Romans 9. And Dr. Flowers had already done all the hard work of untwisting this Scripture for me. (Thank you.)
So by now, I’ve watched quite a few hours of his lectures and commentaries, and now that I understand and it makes perfect sense, I want to distill the essence of it for you.
First of all, I hadn’t taken the time to read the entire context of Romans 9 before I jumped onto this YouTube channel, but as I often teach, understanding the context is imperative.
So, because of that, here is the first part of Romans 9 (NASB):
1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants shall be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah will have a son.” 10 And not only that, but there was also Rebekah, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
Leighton Flowers untwists this Scripture in a beautiful way, and I’m happy to say it’s with the same tools I recommend to you all the time.
- Look at the pronouns.
- Look at the context.
- Look at the word meanings.
- Let the Old and New Testaments shed light on each other.
Pronouns: Who was Paul speaking to? He was speaking to the hardened Jews, the ones who had rejected Jesus. I wrote about that in this article and in Untwisting Scriptures book #4.
Context: The immediate context is that Paul was grieving over the lostness of hardened Israel, but he was also acknowledging the beautiful results: a great work of God would be accomplished (the bringing in of the Gentiles to the kingdom of God).
More context: I need to think about not just the immediate context, but other pertinent parts of the Word of God. We can look at the account of Sarah and Hagar here and immediately think “Galatians 4.”
In the second half of Galatians 4 Paul gave an astounding allegory based on Sarah and Hagar, Isaac and Ishmael. The whole point there is that Kingdom Life is by faith and not works. The Christian life doesn’t depend on what Christians accomplish (for them it was specifically living by the Law) but on the life of the Spirit lived through us. “You” (Galatians) are children of the promise (Isaac) rather than children of the flesh (Ishmael).
More context: What does “God’s purpose according to His choice” in verse 11 refer to? Well, look at that. Those that say this refers to salvation are simply reading into (eisegesis) the text, rather than letting the text speak for itself (exegesis). Leighton makes a solid argument that this is about the birthright, which means being the carrier of the blessing to all nations. That is the context.
That is, this is not about being chosen for salvation. It’s about being chosen to be the conduit of the promise.
Of course. Only one could be the conduit of the promise. That context makes perfect sense.
Word meanings: You might be surprised that two of the words we need to look at are Jacob and Esau. Just like in Galatians, this really isn’t about those individuals. Though that’s how it started, of course, with the prophecy given to Rebekah, that isn’t what it’s ultimately about. Rather, it’s about people groups.
“Jacob” (later renamed “Israel”) represents the people of the promise—they are the ones to whom the birthright was handed down. “Esau” (later renamed “Edom”) represents the people who—though born of Isaac—were rejected in the sense that they would not be the conduit of the promise.
How can I say for sure it’s about people groups? Well, for one, from the context. For another from looking at Galatians. For another, from having a good grasp on the parables (I really should write about those sometime).
But even more, from the Old Testament passages Paul quoted. More about that in a minute here.
Other word meanings: What do loved and hated mean? Loved here means “regarded as special and set apart” and hated means “regarded as not special, not set apart.” It doesn’t mean “hated” in the sense of wanting to destroy (as Calvinists believe) but “hated” in the sense that Jesus said, recorded in Luke 14:26. “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.” (In other words, to treat them as not special in relation to our special relationship with the Lord.)
And what were Jacob and his descendants “special and set apart” for? It was not for salvation, but for being the ancestor of everything Paul listed in verses 4 and 5. Those were very special things. Especially being the progenitors of the Messiah.
Let the Old and New Testaments shine light on each other: Even if it was only about the individuals Jacob and Esau, an understanding of the words loved and hated help a lot. But here’s the context of the first Scripture Paul quoted:
The Lord said to her [Rebekah],
“Two nations are in your womb;
And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people will be stronger than the other;
And the older will serve the younger.”
Obviously this is about people groups, not individuals. One people group was chosen to be the bearers of all Paul listed in verses 4 and 5; the other people group was assigned the worthy job of serving the one who was the conduit of the promise.
Contrary to my own admonitions, I had never thought to look up that second Scripture Paul quoted. I guess I just figured it was part of the Genesis account. The way Paul wrote it, it kind of sounds that way. But really, God said “Esau have I hated” 1500 years later, in the book of Malachi.
This was after 1500 years of the descendants of Esau, the Edomites, being cruel to their “brother,” the carriers of the promise.
In Malachi chapter 1, the Lord told Israel He has loved them (regarded them as special and set apart). When they challenged that, He said,
“I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and given his inheritance to the jackals of the wilderness.”
When the Edomites said they would return and build up the ruins even thought they had been beaten down, the Lord countered with,
“They may build, but I will tear down; and people will call them the territory of wickedness, and the people with whom the Lord is indignant forever.”
Through the generations, instead of serving the nation called to carry the promise, the Edomites had set themselves against that nation and had pursued great wickedness. Therefore—not before Esau was born, but because of their wickedness—the Lord was indignant with them.
This was not about the eternal state of Esau or any of the Edomites. Any of them could still humble themselves before God and come to Him.
This Scripture—yes, even Romans 9—is not about God hating anyone as we normally think, but is about God’s loving provision by sending the Messiah through one people group. In fact, His love for the entire world—including the Edomites, in spite of their wicked actions against Israel.
God chose Jacob and the nation of Israel not because there was anything intrinsically special about Jacob or his descendants. But one person had to be chosen to be the progenitor of the Messiah. Everyone else could rejoice that God was making such provision for the world.
And, as Paul was laying out there in Romans, this Lord Jesus Christ was the Messiah not just for believing Israelites, but for all nations everywhere, all individuals everywhere. He has come, and everyone, from every corner of the world, can come to Him.
This is love. This is joy. This is the gospel.
Go here to download your free Guide, How to Enjoy the Bible Again (when you’re ready) After Spiritual Abuse (without feeling guilty or getting triggered out of your mind). You’ll receive access to both print and audio versions of the Guide (audio read by me). I’m praying it will be helpful.
- 1A note about Calvinism: I believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is sovereign, in the sense that “all things have been put under His feet,” according to Ephesians 1:22. He is King over kings and Lord over lords. I do not believe this sovereignty extends to planning and orchestrating every detail of people’s lives, subsuming their free will.
It would be oh-so-helpful if translations would use the words, ‘set apart’ and ‘not set apart’ so we wouldn’t be so easily confused!!!
As always, thank you for helping us understand!!
I just looked at the whole list of translations of that verse over at BibleGateway. The only one that doesn’t use “hate” is The Living Bible, which says, “I chose to bless Jacob, not Esau.” In my olden days I would have said, “Oh, he watered that down to please their itching ears.” But now I think, “Seems to me like he was the only one of these that got close to what God meant there.”
Well done, Rebecca! I journeyed out of Calvinism early in our marriage, (much to the answered prayers of my husband and parents!) I also am very thankful to Dr. Flowers for that guidance out of Calvinism. His interviews with Dr. Ken Wilson were very influential for me as well, seeing how the philosophical framework of Calvinism is largely dependent upon church father Augustine, and how much Augustine’s worldview was largely influenced by Greek philosophy carried over into Scripure. (That’s how I remember it anyway – I hope I’m not misrepresenting!)
I also wanted to comment on how you said above that is was a “worthy honor” for the Edomites to be called to serve Israel. I thought that was quite poignant. In the upside-down kingdom of God, even the one who serves is given a place of honor. As our Savior said “I am among you as one who serves; the first shall be last and the last first…” Our humanity’s natural tendency to kick against self sacrifice or merely being counted as “common” when in a place of subservience and tendency to “lord it over” and seek attention, and sadly, abuse at times when in a place of leadership likely have to do with the relational problems that ensue in what would otherwise create a quite harmonious, dignifying, and “shalom”-filled existence as a group of humans living together.
(I by no means am shaming those who have found themselves in a place of being a wicked leader’s victim who have had to seek justice in the above statement, just to be clear. 🙂 )
Excellent thoughts! Thank you! I didn’t become a Calvinist till I was about 40, and I think it lasted about 10 or 12 years. I kept trying to fit square pegs into round holes because those I respected did . . . but that’s another story.
Here’s an example of a “worthy honor”–in my book coaching and editing business, I have the privilege of helping others who are writing their books. These are not MY books, and the other person gets the credit, of course. But I count it an honor to help them with books that are proclaiming to others the goodness of God and His great salvation.
And I wholeheartedly agree with your disclaimer too. It’s no honor to aid and abet and enable a wicked person (or people group). This is one reason for the shame so many abuse survivors feel when they finally get out and understand what happened.
This is the same bit that struck me, “worthy honor”!! You put my thoughts into words so I don’t need to add more – just to say Me Too! 🙂
I remember reading those passages in college for the first time, “Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated.” It struck great fear into me. What is it like to be hated by God? Alive, but not really living. Alive, but yet, cursed to wander the earth, without a sense of purpose, knowing your eternal fate at the end of it all.
That’s really what was going through my head. I thought that God had abandoned me and forsaken me. But I was also in a crisis at the time, and so my view of the scriptures were very warped. I could go on and on about that.
Over time, I came to understand the context of the passage. Yes, you are right, it has to do with chosenness, over salvation. God chose Jacob to be the carrier of the promise, not Esau. Esau and the Edomites can still be saved, they just aren’t the carriers of the promise.
It’s always been scary to me, too, the story of Esau losing his birthright, because of the lentil stew. Esau lost his promise and his blessing because he was acting in the flesh. I’ve lost many promises and blessings in my life, because of acting in the flesh. We see a similar narrative in Saul, and in Cain. But by God’s grace, I can accept that there’s always a way forward, there’s always another open door. One mistake doesn’t have to be the end of our story.
Last weekend, I went to church, which I don’t do often anymore. The Pastor preached on Balaam and the donkey. Balaam wanted to go his own stubborn way. God tried to stop him, but he kept going.
I’ve heard this sermon preached many times, pointing toward our stubborn rebellion. But the pastor preached on it more in terms of, we can just come to God. We can just come to Jesus and lay our burden down, whatever that is.
That’s good–I’m glad that pastor gave a hopeful perspective on that bleak story.
One thing I . . . hate . . . and harp on pretty regularly, is the conflating of the New Covenant people of God, ALL of whom are spiritually redeemed by definition, with the Old Covenant people of God, most of whom had no interest at all in redemption. WE have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of God’s dear Son! We are different from Esau, Cain, Saul, Balaam, all of them, because we, the New Covenant people of God, have the Holy Spirit within us. We are privileged to be able, by the Spirit, to comprehend and KNOW the breadth, and length, and depth, and height of the love of Jesus Christ. They had no such honor.
Yeah, I guess you’re right. I was always told for every New Testament principle, there’s an OT story. That we can see the OT stories as types or archetypes for the Christian spiritual life. I think, we can to some degree, but when we go too far with that, it just becomes a burden, not the gospel of grace. I still remember how agonizing it felt to have some of those CC preachers expound up the wandering in the wilderness or the Book of Judges.
I do think there are many allegories in the Old Testament, with Paul pointing out one of them in Galatians 4 standing as the preeminent example. But I agree when we try to make every little bit fit, it just ends up being a burden.
Great article! Thanks for clearing this up. It has always bothered me to think Esau was hated before he was born, for no apparent reason. Didn’t sound like the loving God I know. Thanks for shedding light on this scripture.
Romans is an argument that both Jews and Gentiles need Jesus. And how did people miss that Paul liked t use people from Genesis as metaphors for groups of people? And that hyperbole is extremely common in Scripture. Feels like a people group that uses understatement all the time went and misinterpreted the hyperbolic language in Scripture. And wouldn’t theistic determinism make God out to be the author of sin(sounds blasphemous)? If God directly controlled the motion of every atom in the universe, we would be puppets. Don’t know why some people arrogantly think that is true.
And yet there are many, many sincere believers who do hold to this teaching. It’s important to be able to lay out plainly why their interpretation isn’t correct. Leighton Flowers is doing that, and I’m glad I can learn from him to lay it out more plainly.
I remember once sitting through a stressful sermon which included the thought that “whom He will, He hardeneth.” In context, and given the speaker, I thought it possible, perhaps likely, that at least some of the others present submit their confused thoughts about me into “well, He must have hardened her, blessed be His name.” (This imagining what others think of one is for the birds, but I find myself doing it still).
And I thought–I want to be soft! Keep me soft! And…what if God has hardened me?
Then the thought came: But even the hardened ones are still a part of His plan.
At this, I nearly cried, for what I want, more than anything, is to be a part of His plan.
I can’t say that any of this–whom He will, He hardeneth, or Esau He hates–makes “perfect sense” to me (were you speaking partly in irony?), but this I believe: I love Him because He first loved me. And I am part of His plan.
And someday–here’s the joy!–every man will receive his praise of God. (1 Cor. 4:5)
Maybe you’ve written somewhere about ‘those He hardens’?
I’ve heard that hardening just means God lets stubborn people be even more stubborn. Sort of a be careful what you wish for, you might get it situation. Since a hardened person wouldn’t care, you aren’t hardened. If you are fine with God being in control and don’t absolutely have to have your own way, you aren’t anything like the Pharaoh that refused to let the Hebrews leave slavery.
and if I may add, yes those verses about who God hated and hardened weighted heavy on me also,
was i even saved if i had an independent thought.? I struggled for years until God told me I had to live by faith. that put it all in perspective.
The bible says He is the author and finisher of our faith–but there are many chapters in between and I speculate we can “write” the chapters in between by using our God-given brains and thinking processes and ability to choose and make decisions about our lives on a daily basis by faith (where we live, what we eat, careers, jobs, hobbies, curtain color etc)
I haven’t, but Amy’s thoughts pretty much reflect my thoughts on the matter.
Just keep wanting to know the Lord and asking Him to help you understand His salvation and show you His love. As Amy said, as long as you’re wanting Him, you are not hardened.
Thank you so much, Rebecca! This “mini untwisting” just healed another part of my heart. I am so thankful for continued insight into the heart and goodness and love of our Father.
Even though the section of scripture from Luke 14 was such a small part of this particular blog, reading it in the context of what you wrote spoke directly to my heart. I look at Jacob and Esau and understand that the “love” for Jacob and “hate” for Esau was pointing to the redemption that would eventually come through Jacob’s bloodline in Jesus. Now looking at Luke 14 with that understanding, I can see that to “hate” the people mentioned is because our redemption cannot come through them. Jesus is special and worthy of that type of love and honor because it is only through Him that we find salvation… wholeness. I always struggled a bit with, “well, it means you love those people less than you love Jesus”, because while there’s absolutely an element of truth there, there were also connotations in the way it was communicated that people can then be disposable in somebody’s pursuit of Jesus or His “plan” for their life. (I am not talking about abusive/toxic relationships that have to be severed for health [mental, physical, emotional and/or spiritual] or safety reasons.) We cannot hate people or use them/dispose of them in a genuine relationship with the true Jesus. He IS love. We can and should love others well, but with the full recognition that they do not hold our redemption or salvation. This truth is helping to set me free in areas that have just recently started bubbling to the surface in need of healing. Thank you again for sharing!
Yes, so important, and I know that can be a kind of Scripture twisting too. I’m thankful it’s helpful–this understanding certainly has been helpful to me.
Jacob’s descendents were the CONDUIT of the promise (salvation through Jesus Messiah) but Esau’s descendents may be RECIPIENTS of the promise, by faith in Jesus Messiah.
No hate here. Only grace and salvation.
Yes, great way to put it!
Rebecca,
So glad that you don’t use the Calvinist lenses anymore! Flowers played a BIG part in healing my heart from the Calvinism I was exposed to by our New Restless and Reformed pastor a few years ago! …. his (our former pastor’s) teaching was literally changing my view of God’s character – and doesn’t God spend a HUGE part of His Word convincing us that He is LOVE and that He is GOOD!… the Calvinistic view of God is neither of these things! Best to you, Rebecca! Jane
Ah yes. God bless you as well, Jane, and thank you for your comment!
” And Salmon begat Boaz, and Boaz begat Obed, 22And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.” (Ruth 4:21&22)
I find it remarkable that the lineage of our Master and Savior came through the people God”hated “.
As I understand it, those men were descendants of Jacob/Israel, the one He chose to be the bearer of the promise, not the descendants of Esau.
I thought that those were the people that God loved (or rather, the ones chosen by him to carry the promise.)
I am so glad to find this! In fact, I’ve subscribed! I grew up in a very strongly Calvinistic part of the country – Western Michigan where there’s a large Dutch-American population. I don’t have much to say right now, but I may add some stuff later on. I’m looking forward to hearing all of this.
Yes, I’m very familiar with the preponderance of Reformed beliefs in Western Michigan. I’m glad it’s helpful.